Oh, Ky. You sly devil, you. XD
Jokes aside, this is a pretty big development for them. Maybe they're setting themselves up for more hurt and failure. Or maybe things will be better in a different kind of setting where they can get used to each other at their own pace. Either way, I guess they're gonna give it one more shot?
Thoughts? Is this just what they needed or a disaster waiting to happen?
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I think Drew know what he did was wrong and he upset about saying it, but he still doesn't fully understand all the LGBT things and issues.
omg drew you're such a dork
@fenny: "M-maybe we should try going over one another's houses. We can really just... you know, watch some Netflix. And chill."
Ok, I'm sorry if this comes off as rude or mean, but I'm kinda ignorant about most of these LGBT issues and I don't know where else to ask so: Is there any scientific basis for gender queer?
If I may explain: I am firmly in the biological camp about LGBT issues, if you are trangender or homosexual, it is because there is some difference between your brain and a cisgendered heterosexual person's brain. I absolutely do NOT mean to imply that this difference is bad in any way, merely that there is a difference. This view is supported by how we can observe animals displaying transgendered and homosexual behavior. That being said...
I don't understand how it is possible for someone to flip back and forth between identifying as a male and identifying as a female (as it is presented in this comic) with the same sort of disforia as a transgendered person would have. With the exeption of developing a genderqueer condition psycologically (which by my understanding would be so rare that the mere fact that multiple people in the comments of this comic have said they were genderqueer discredits this possibility) I don't know of any way that a gender queer condition could occur, nor can I find any source online that delves into this subject at all.
So to conclude: Is gender queer purely psycological, where the person simply want to be one gender one day and the other another day, in which case being outed (while certainly a mean thing to do) would not cause the same sort of depression as in transgender individuals, or can someone give me any sort of explanation or link to a website that explains in more detail how this works?
Again, I'm really sorry if this offends anyone but I really want to understand and don't know where else to ask.
@john: Honestly, nobody knows. Heck, even the scientific basis for transgenderism is pretty much just conjecture at this point. So here are some better questions:
Does a condition being psychological in nature actually make it less real? If the person affected feels it is real, why bother saying it's not? Note that we're not talking about an external projection of the mind, such as an imaginary friends; we're talking about the way a person perceives themselves, something that is already largely subjective.
Even if you decide that gender fluidity isn't real based on the lack of evidence for a physical cause, does that give you any reason not to treat it as real? If the condition, real or not, is not treatable (or the person doesn't want it treated) and causes no harm to the person affected, or to anyone around them, is there any benefit to acting as though their condition isn't real?
I'm not offended by your question, which I consider to in fact be relevant and smartly worded, and I do not mean for my answer to be condescending in any way. The point I am trying to make here is that the social impact of a gender-related condition and our reaction to it is far more important than any scientific evidence.
I'm not genderfluid, but I still felt a little hurt by your question, or maybe it's more like feeling invalidated and erased by proxy by it.
Not exactly because you're asking about "scientific basis" -- we trans people debate it all the time -- but because of the implication that if we can't supply one, it must not be real, or that "it's all in our heads."
It may be an intellectual question for you, but your assumption that we (or anybody under the trans umbrella) must explain ourselves to you to your satisfaction before you'll believe we are real is a just a "kinder, gentler" version of what we face every day: a society that insists that unless we can explain and justify being who we are to their satisfaction and in a way that doesn't require them to change their preconceptions of How People Really Are, we are obligated to stop existing.
You may believe that the infamous "bathroom bills" that are being proposed and passed all over the USA have nothing to do with your question, but they come from the same underlying assumption.
It's an intellectual question for you, but it's a matter of life and death for us. (Literally -- there's a reason the suicide rate among trans people is so high.)
@john: Brain structures...
Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my question, and I'm sorry to those of you who I have offended.
Treating something, ESPECIALLY human conditions, as real is not predicated on having concrete information on the cause, rather it merely requires reasonable evidence of the effects. This is why I don't question transgenderism, homosexuality, or dark matter.
I have never known a genderfluid person IRL, nor do I see much of a presence of such individuals online so the effects of a genderfluid condition were in question.
The underlying implication that genderfluidity might not be real was because philosophy has long been conflated with psychology, and genderfluidity, as a dynamic, swapping back and forth condition, goes against how I know the brain to work. So it seemed there was a decent likelihood it was victim of such conflation. (there are, of course, a lot of misconceptions online)
I'll admit, the whole condition still seems weird to me, and that probably wont change until I have met a genderfluid person IRL, but your responses have made me realize some things and I will try to be less alienating in the future.
@john: "I have never known a genderfluid person IRL"
I take quite the opposite view: that EVERYONE is genderfluid. But most people's fluidity doesn't cross any boundaries such that they notice it.
From what I've read, there are at least three known areas of the brain where one physical arrangement is strongly associated with the male gender and another is similarly female. All three have in-between and divergent forms. And they don't necessarily agree with each other, let alone with what's at the far end of the torso. Which leaves room for quite a lot of physical brain anatomies of genderqueer..
Add in the myriad different things that can cause temporary changes in brain chemistry, hormone levels, and patterns of neuron activation, and yeah, genderfluidity is not surprising. In my opinion, the absence of it would be surprising.
I would imagine a person who is seriously, regularly genderfluid (in a way that crosses boundaries) would maintain multiple online personas for the different genders plus maybe one for close friends they're "out" to.
With me (mostly neutral and only slightly boundary-crossing) it's more subtle: my fluidity rarely shows up where other people can see it, except in my fiction-writing where nearly all of my central characters are of the sex I'm not.
As for your question being offensive, yes it was, but IMHO you should get a certain amount of slack because you acknowledged that you were coming from a position of ignorance and sought to correct that ignorance.
Wow, Ky is very quick to forgive :o
@Kimiko_0: Which is a good thing. Yes, Drew screwed up, but he didn't do so out of malice. He's someone who wants to understand, but doesn't yet. Ky's options were to either leave him to his own devices as someone who doesn't understand gender issues and may screw up in the future, or keep teaching him so that he may become the kind of person who actually helps improve things in the future.
@Kimiko_0: Well, yes. But also adept at getting in a quick jab...
Being Gender Fluid I can say it is not some thing you decide to be or do. I can say it as some thing to do with both hormones and the way my brain is set up to be. I do not like the label Gender Queer though. I never use that term. It is more like there is wiring in the brain to be both male and female. One takes over more for a time then the other. I think hormones have a lot to do with it and the way the brain reacts to them. I am on estrogen and it keeps me more on the female side. But often I find I want to other to. The brain as a gender to. It does not always match up as we think it should. I am intersex to so that is why for me I think mostly. I was born what seems a normal male baby but later in life as I hit puberty my body and mind started trying to be female. Grew breasts like a girl and have hips much like so. And my personality was very female though I am very wide shouldered big and 6'2" tall. Believe me if I had a chioce I would rather been a male as it seemed I should be at first. I tried very hard and always seemed to fail at it. My sexual desires are mostly just female to. Though I would never wish to have sex with a male unless my body was all female. All my relationships have been with tomboy females who say they are male who are just like me mentally. Gender I have found is a much more fluid thing then we think it is. There is more then as we are told then just male and female. I wish things could be as simple as we are told but they never are. It is not a bad thing but it makes life more interesting I think. It is not a mental illness though if left indebted with it can cause problems seeming like so. Being forced to be some thing you can not be will cause much mental harm and even death. I been there so close on the edge to many times to death to count. And even if you do not harm yourself others mite or you get refused medical care as I have in the past. Who would choose that unless they had no other chioce. It is hard to understand if you do not go thru it and I do and even I have problems at times doing so. I just do not have much a chioce but to be me and live on the best I can. :P
Oh my, Ky. You tease! Lol
@TallMist: His milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. :P
After like 2 days of binge reading I have finally come to the point of a new update.
Its time to try and stick around now!
@Scorpy: Welcome to the group, Scorpy :)
Ky, you're letting him off way too easy - Drew should be begging you for forgiveness...
Oh well, if anything, I'm glad these two are still together, because, you know, Dry is my ship.
@Maplestrip: your ship is dry? Um.. Did it not touch water?
@Maplestrip: Wouldn't the punnier ship name be Krew? Like the crew of a ship?
@TallMist: More like a New Orleans marching society.
That's spelled "Krewe".
@TallMist: Dry is way more punny, because it's the opposite of Rain.
Or something like that.
I totally get why people let others back into their lives, in spite of being hurt. But after a while, you have to stop trusting them and keep them out as a way to protect yourself. At the same time, most of us *need* to be able to share their lives with someone they love.
Being trans (or any of the many flavors of LGBTQI there are) is hard enough and there aren't a lot of people who get us and even fewer who are willing to try.
I admire those who don't worry about what others think and love the person for who they are, not what bits they have. (Like Martin in Questionable Content)
So yeah, I've been known to give people more chances than they deserve, but being burned a few times makes you want to not trust anyone again.
@Steph: I empathise. I stopped dating women after being cheated on too many times to count. I know it's bad, but I JUST can't put myself out there like that. But, I'm projecting- being pan is a HELL of alot easier than being straight, gay, or even bi and very likely easier than being trans/non-binary. But I understand, at least on a conceptual level, your pain. You deserve better.
@-\_(\")_/-: Stop stealing my name!
@-\_(\")_/-: Even easier for me. I'm ace and agender. Took one look at sexuality and said, "Yeah, no. I'm gonna go to my little corner now. Kay? Okay."
I was starting to label you a chronic ship-sinker, Jocelyn.
Relationships in the Rainverse are like the moral leads in the Walking Dead or Batman's side-kicks; they die often, usually in terrible, heart-wrenching ways.
But this a nice change of pace.
Ky wants the D...rew. :P
I know this is a bit late, but the evidence supports the genderfluid moreso than the genderbinary. Our identities, attractions, desires, and behaviours all are best seen as shifting multivariants. While cultural pressures may push folk toward the binary, almost all women, and many men, are bisexual enough to find themselves attracted to someone of the 'off' gender, now and again. In the same way, while many have gender identities toward one end of the binary, all of us have feeling and capabilities which don't well match our presenting gender. I am very girly, but have worked in engineering and hard science, where I've had to be 'one of the guys', acting pretty butch, just to survive in a sexist work environment. Some days I don't mind that they see me as male(ish) other days it just infuriates me.
I don't pass as male very well, and haven't even tried for years now but when I was in boy drag, it was really infuriating and hurtful to be outed by friends and co-workers, especially since in the engineering environment, to be outed as female was often 'dog whistle' implying incompetentence.
The reverse can happen just as easily, with people assuming that my practical, rational outlook made me less a woman; that I was a 'broken' female because I didn't pay a lot of attention to makeup and style. I've cried some over that too.
The bottom line is that our own chemistry, the immediate circumstances, mood, and intent can all dictate one's (fluid) gender identity, even though culture is constantly pressing us to binary expression and identity.
You say you've never met a genderfluid person, I reply that nearly everyone you've ever met is at least a little genderfluid, but their culture has flogged it out of them.