Perspective

posted June 23rd, 2017, 8:32 am


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view LittleLynn84's profile

June 23rd, 2017, 8:36 am

LittleLynn84

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I can't vouch for other people's experiences, but when I started presenting female full-time, strangers started being nicer to me. I don't if that has anything to do with attitudes towards women versus towards men. Or if it was just that I gave off a more positive vibe that people found more approachable because I was happy for once. Or both, I guess. Whatever the reason, it led to a lot more friendly tones and small talk (particularly from clerks).

I was actually somewhat taken aback by this newfound friendliness myself (I also have a lot of social anxiety), but Ruby seems to LOVE it. And interacting with all these strangers who respond very positively towards Ruby is very exciting.

But then we see other students from St. Hallvard (because what else is there for teens to do in this town besides go to the mall, apparently). We have Ana, Madison, Colette, and Aidyn. And among them, everyone but Colette knows who Rudy is and would probably recognize him right away. Would that be an issue though? It's clear Ruby is not excited to see them right now... but why? Is there any danger with this particular group of people? Or does Ruby just want that alone time right now?


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August 20th, 2018, 5:20 pm

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June 23rd, 2017, 9:36 am

Spooks

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As a trans man, I can confirm that the opposite happened when I transitioned. Men started being rude to me and women were more reserved, so I don't think it's just an attitude thing. Actually, one of the first times I ever successfully passed, I got cursed out because I thought a dude was holding the door for me (in my defense, I had my hands full of heavy boxes).

Truthfully my suspicion is that people are nicer to women because they're perceived as less threatening, and in the case of a lot of men, because guys flat out want attention from them. I mean, how many women have you heard say that a dude held the door for them and then either cussed them out for not being "grateful" or tried make advances on them? It's depressing.

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view TallMist's profile

June 23rd, 2017, 10:16 am

TallMist

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Ruby is wholesome and I wish I could see more of them! (I'm not sure which pronouns Ruby uses. I know Rudy uses he/him, but does Rudy still use he/him when out as Ruby or she/her or they/them or some other pronouns...?)


--------------------------------------------

Edit: Jesus Christ, all I wanted to know is Ruby's pronouns when they are out as Ruby. I didn't want all this "Lol, Jhe? Are you joking? That's ridiculous", tone-policing bullshit drama.

If you're going to reply to my comment to continue drawing out the drama, don't. I don't have the spoons for it and am simply not going to respond to it anymore.

Seriously, if I have to engage in yet ANOTHER conversation about this exact same conversation, then I'm going to have a major freak-out because of all the stress and bullshit I've had to put up with lately.

I'm not dealing with it, ESPECIALLY when my comment had VERY LITTLE to do with drama that occurred anyways.

Again, please, if you're going to comment on anything, please just let it be an answer to my initial question.

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June 23rd, 2017, 1:07 pm

Don Edwards (Guest)

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@TallMist: I go with pronouns based on presentation, unless specifically requested otherwise. So Rudy is "he" but Rudy-in-drag is "she".

When working with humans, in English, I don't do "alternative" pronouns that are unknown to most people and probably don't even look like English words. ("Jhe"? It's a joke, right? Go find three non-technical English words that have "jh" in one syllable.)

When the sex/presentation is unknown or indeterminate (the sex of whomever will be hired to fill a vacancy)... I hate the singular "they", but much of society has rejected the inclusive masculine, and the alternatives I've seen are even worse.

If I were designing our language, we wouldn't have these pronoun issues; we'd have at least one full set of sex-neutral pronouns for people (unlike the unperson-gender "it"), and I don't know if I'd bother with pronouns tied to sex - we have them only in second-person singular. But I didn't get that job.

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June 23rd, 2017, 1:14 pm

TallMist

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@Don Edwards: I'm not going to respect you when you say that you assume peoples' genders based on what they wear, and I'm not going to respect you when you say you refuse to respect non-binary pronouns. I refuse to read the rest of what you said and respectfully wish you a good day.

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June 23rd, 2017, 3:29 pm

TKK (Guest)

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@TallMist: I am a genderfluid person, and I both prefer and find it natural if people refer to me by the pronoun normal for the gender I am presenting as at the time. And I would thank you very much NOT to use any of those utterly artificial 'non-binary´pronoun.
You may have other preferences, and that is okay. But it is NOT okay that you bite the head off other people for preferring other ways. Don Edwards made a well-reasoned AND respectful argument for his feelings about pronouns - by treating him as a mean, horrible person, unworthy of even the most basic respect, just because those feelings are different from yours, YOU are the one showing yourself to be utterly rude and intolerant.

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June 23rd, 2017, 4:13 pm

TallMist

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@TKK: Utterly artificial? Oh, yeah, because those "normal" pronouns were grown on trees. Totally not artificial and man-made at all. -_-
I'm being utterly rude and intolerant when I'm not the one saying that non-binary pronouns are a joke? Sorry, no. I don't do tone-policing. I have plenty of non-binary friends that use they/them pronouns, zhe/zer pronouns, etc. and they are totally valid in their usage and I will defend them when someone comes to MY comment saying "Oh, you should just call people pronouns based on what they're wearing, because clothes are signification of gender" or whatever bullshit when all I did was ask THE AUTHOR OF THE COMIC, NOT SOME RANDOM, ANONYMOUS READER, what the character's pronouns are because I want to be respectful to the comic author and, by extension, her comic's characters.

Please tell me how Don Edwards was being respectful with statements that pretty much shit on peoples' non-binary pronouns.

EDIT: Actually, don't. Because I don't have the spoons to put up with people that say things like "Hurr, durr, you use pronouns that aren't he, she, or they? That's a joke right?" I'm not arguing this with intolerant, closed-minded jerks. Goodbye.

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June 23rd, 2017, 5:27 pm

Guest

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@TallMist: Don Edwards was perhaps a bit too dismissive of existing non-binary pronouns, but the overall point of his comment was that the English language should have had a universally accepted gender-neutral pronoun by design, besides the grammatically questionable "they" or the many disparate ones created in lieu of one already baked into the English language, which is a valid and reasonable opinion. The "joke" comment was probably going too far, but it's not wrong to say that a lot of gender-neutral pronouns are obscure, inconsistent with existing English etymology, and difficult to parse if you're not "in the know" -- this can legitimately be a real problem, since it can potentially make it difficult to communicate with people not familiar with these pronouns.

Edwards also didn't specify that his interpretation of Ruby's pronouns was about clothing specifically -- he said that he bases Rudy/Ruby's pronouns based on presentation, a very different thing. Ruby's voice and mannerisms are distinct from Rudy, not just the clothes, and it's obvious Rudy is attempting to pass as female, which makes it a reasonable assumption that female pronouns are appropriate. If Rudy/Ruby, or the author, says otherwise, that's fine and would change things, and Edwards acknowledges this. Hardly a display of intolerance.

I don't necessarily agree with everything Edwards said, but you're grossly misrepresenting what his actual arguments and opinions are. I don't see anything in his comment to imply that he has issues with non-binary pronouns themselves (quite the opposite), just the perceived silliness of some of the ones people have invented for lack of a pre-existing one (which he, in fact, goes on to argue should have existed all along in the first place, possibly even in favor of gendered pronouns). Whether this opinion is valid or not is debatable, but it's not indicative of a lack of tolerance of non-binary people or pronouns in general, nor, in my opinion, is his comment about Ruby's pronouns.

But I don't know why I'm bothering to say this, seeing as you've openly acknowledged that you don't care about hearing anybody else's side of this. Intolerant and close-minded indeed.

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view magicalfeyfenny's profile

June 24th, 2017, 4:03 pm

magicalfeyfenny

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@Guest:

1) They/them isn't grammatically questionable if you consider the singular usage as a homophone and homograph of the plural usage as a third-person pronoun. A similar thing happened with *second-person* singular pronouns a few centuries ago, when "you/your" (originally plural) obsoleted "thee/thou/thine". Even if it was grammatically questionable, it's been in use longer than the (actually questionable) "neutral he", and there is enough grammatically questionable things in English that you'd have to make a new language to make it happen, and even then, there will eventually come a time where the 'rules' are broken, either by common usage or by new concepts.

2) Language is not prescriptive for concepts already in the language. While terms like 'cisgender' have successfully been added, those were concepts for which words did not exist, and used existing structures (in this case, opposite root word of 'trans' is 'cis'). Attempts to add singular gender-neutral pronouns to general-use English artificially have failed because they were treated prescriptively, to solve a problem the language doesn't actually have.

3) That being said, refusing to use one's gender pronouns, regardless of your opinion on their validity in language, is misgendering them. It's every bit as wrong to call someone using 'she/her' 'he' as it is to call someone using 'they/them' anything other than 'they/them', or to call someone using a neopronoun like 'jhe' (to use your example), or like 'fae/faer' (to use my pronouns) anything other than that. To think otherwise is to support the misgendering of both nonbinary people and those who do not support the binary's pronouns.

4) Before you ask, 2 does not supercede 3. Neopronouns are a relatively new concept, a general-use singular gender-neutral pronoun is not and is already taken by 'they/them'.

An unchanging language is a dead language. Get with the times, and stop harassing someone who is only asking what pronouns a major supporting character uses when dressed up like this.

And log back in to the account you're sockpuppeting for. It's kinda embarrassing, Don TKK. Being intolerant of intolerance like yours is how the most vulnerable are protected.

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June 24th, 2017, 5:23 pm

Guest

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@magicalfeyfenny: Even putting aside the differences in my speech patterns, I'm not sure why you would think I'm Don Edwards considering I openly profess that I disagree with him about a number of things you're criticizing me for, namely his refusal to use certain pronouns and unnecessarily crass dismissal of them. I'd really appreciate it if you stop treating us like the same person, seeing as I haven't done or said most of the things you accuse me of, besides my comment about the singular "they" being grammatically questionable. I've never really had a reason to register an account before (in the rare event that I do comment, it's usually a one-off), but I'm willing to do it if that will help show that I'm not Edwards, nor do I support all that he has said.

With regards to your arguments about the singular "they", I don't disagree that English is a changing language, nor do I contest that singular "they" has existed for a long time, but when I used the term "grammatically questionable" my intent was not to disqualify its validity (I use it fairly regularly myself, in fact) but rather to note its inconsistency with the way singular pronouns otherwise operate in the English language. It's worth noting that we still use "are" in combination with "they" even when it's being used in the singular sense, which shouldn't happen for a third-person pronoun if it's just a homonym of the plural version. Besides being mildly awkward in general, it can, for this reason, potentially lead to confusion about whether it's being used in the singular or plural sense, so I can understand why somebody might want a more grammatically conventional pronoun, given a choice. That's all I meant to imply. (And I think it's worth reiterating that I myself use the singular "they" quite regularly, and personally have little to no issue with it.)

That all being said, I of course agree that respect for others' identities should come first and foremost, and unlike Edwards I would never refuse to use a pronoun if that was what somebody identified with, whether it be "they" or "jhe" or whatever. I won't deny that this is a huge problem with his argument -- but I do think there needs to be a distinction between a flawed, potentially hurtful opinion and outright intolerance of all non-binary people, which is what Edwards was accused of and which I don't think is accurate, considering he openly supports gender-neutral pronouns as a concept. Again, I don't agree with everything he said, but I do think it's important to be cognizant of what the actual issue here is.

For what it's worth, while I don't necessarily renege on what I said in my previous comment, I do feel bad for contributing to this massive derail of an innocent question. I still disagree with a number of things that Tallmist has said, but for whatever distress I may have caused I am sorry. (And while I'm not sure that Tallmist is even reading this anymore, I'm willing to drop this whole conversation if that would help.)

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June 24th, 2017, 5:48 pm

magicalfeyfenny

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@Guest: Nah, you can go away with your prescriptivism. Language will evolve with or without you. If you didn't have an issue with it, you wouldn't have started harassing Tallmist in the first place. Why don't you start using 'thou'? Singular you is grammatically inconsistent and incorrect, for the same exact reasons, according to your 'logic' about they, and 'thou' already exists as a word so there's even less of a reason to use you.

As far as saying that you're Don or TKK, all 3 of you are guests harassing a regular poster in this comment section about something as small as the common, general usage of a word that you don't happen to like, even though what they were asking isn't even relevant. That gives off very major sockpuppetry vibes, and it's not that hard to tell when someone is a sockpuppet.

Apologize for your actions, Don TKK. Saying "I'm sorry I offended you" isn't apologizing, it's victim blaming disguised as such.

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June 24th, 2017, 6:46 pm

Guest

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@magicalfeyfenny: Other than the admittedly harsh last paragraph of my first comment, I think I've been pretty calm and respectful, actually. I certainly don't think that what I've said qualifies as harassment. Please let go of your assumption that we are all the same person for a second, and I think you will see that my position is quite different from Don's and even TKK's.

Again, I am perfectly willing to use whatever pronouns I am asked to. Given Don's apparent disdain for the pronouns in question, I am not sure why you think I (being him, according to you) would backpedal so drastically on this matter.

To address what you said about "you" -- if I may split hairs here, that's a second-person pronoun, where my position was that "they" was inconsistent with existing third-person pronouns, which as far as I am aware is quite true. Admittedly, though, singular "you" and plural "you" are also used identically, which, yes, does run into the same problem I cited for "they". This is something I hadn't considered when I first said that. English is a weird and inconsistent language to begin with, but ultimately my point is that these are the rules that people are taught and used to, whereas the singular "they" is significantly less prevalent in academic settings. As such, I don't blame people for feeling a degree of discomfort using the singular "they", and a desire for a gender-neutral pronoun more in line with what they are used to. Whether that's a SOUND reason for not wanting to use the singular "they" I can't say. But I get it. That's all.

As far as "harassing" Tallmist over this issue, the grammatical consistency of the singular "they" was only a small part of what I was originally saying, and to be frank it really wasn't a big deal until you made it one. I really don't know why you think this is such a sticking point for me.

Finally, if "I'm sorry I offended you" is how my comment came across, I genuinely do apologize for that. My intent was to convey my regret for making the comment in the first place, seeing as Tallmist had previously expressed a disinterest in continuing the conversation. I didn't realize how much stress I might cause by disregarding that sentiment, and that is, in fact, on me. If that sounds like victim blaming, I don't mean it to be.

EDIT: After some consideration, if we can't even agree on who I am or what I've actually said, there's obviously no point in continuing this conversation. Also, while I've justified my continued involvement thus far as replying to you, rather than Tallmist, I'm nevertheless growing increasingly uncomfortable prolonging this derail that by all rights should never have happened in the first place. As such, this will be my last comment in this thread. Have a nice rest of your day.

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June 25th, 2017, 10:34 pm

Guest

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Jhove Jheel Jhils

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view magicalfeyfenny's profile

June 24th, 2017, 3:48 pm

magicalfeyfenny

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@TallMist: The author doesn't seem to be using any pronouns for Ruby in the descriptions of the last couple pages, though she has referred to Rudy as 'he'.

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June 25th, 2017, 7:13 pm

Haldo (Guest)

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>insert that one gif of donald glover carrying pizzas into a burning room here

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June 23rd, 2017, 11:31 am

KrimsonNekros

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Honestly I'd put Ruby's fear of being recognized as the reason for the reaction in the last panel. If people know you, they can more easily recognise you unless your face is more heavily obscured.

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June 23rd, 2017, 11:32 am

Guest

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Wait… is Todd… no you wouldn't

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view ALittleSurprise's profile

June 23rd, 2017, 3:55 pm

ALittleSurprise

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He might...

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June 23rd, 2017, 4:06 pm

Chandelure (Guest)

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June 23rd, 2017, 8:40 pm

ALittleSurprise

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Ask out Ruby...?

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view Barn0wl's profile

June 24th, 2017, 7:36 pm

Barn0wl

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@ALittleSurprise: That might be humorous ... for a moment. But could be dangerous for Ruby/Rudy as there is already a history of physical violence with Todd against Rudy.

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June 23rd, 2017, 11:39 am

Barn0wl

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I can't say for sure what Ruby is thinking, but from what she's saying and the look on her face in the last panel, she's not very happy about seeing Ana and the others.

I'm a guy and I try to be polite to most people around me. ESPECIALLY store clerks, wait staff, and anyone else who is helping me. It takes almost no effort on my part, and they're jobs are tough. If I can make one of them smile a bit or brighten their day just a tiny bit, it's worth it. (I've worked retail and it sucks!)

And I'll hold the door for anybody who is coming up behind me. And if someone is carrying stuff, I'll definitely hold it. I don't think we should base how polite we are to others around us based on their gender or any other label ... we should just be polite because it's ... well, polite.

(I'm using female pronouns for Ruby right now, because she seems to be enjoying being female and having people refer to her that way right now.)

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June 23rd, 2017, 1:06 pm

Quiet Reader (Guest)

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Panel 4 for me seems to imply Rudy's cross-dressing serves two functions: 1) it's enjoyable to play a role and 2) it gets him positive attention. We've seen firsthand how much negative attention and ridicule Rudy gets from his classmates and even at home with his parents. Getting positive attention as girl is probably a wonderful escape from his normal treatment because he gets to be someone else: Ruby.

I bring that up because I'd say that's why Rudy is unhappy to see classmates. The phrase "stronger in numbers" is very true - going out as group means a less likely chance someone will mess with him and we've seen people like Todd single him out when he's alone. Aside from just enjoying cross-dressing, playing Ruby is probably a get way to avoid attention and have some alone-time. Classmates means the risk of being identified, especially since some of those classmates may recognize Ruby from Emily's Halloween party. (I do realize these all seem to be underclassmen, but if Rudy and Ky got into the party, it's possible other underclassmen got in too or at least heard rumors).

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June 23rd, 2017, 3:12 pm

Chandelure (Guest)

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"Is there any danger with this particular group of people?"

Ana isn't and I got the vibe in the Reread, that it was planned for Rudy to have his own set of Friends consisting of Madison and Aidyn instead of him just hanging out with the other Kids above his age. But it is completely possible, that I've just read to much into two friendly conversations, that Rudy had with them and where they weren't particularly in Focus.

Well, Aidyn and Madison are also in Page #152 - Cutie together with Ruby, so they've definetly seen Ruby already, but they didn't seem to have a Problem with it then.

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view TallMist's profile

June 23rd, 2017, 7:31 pm

TallMist

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@Chandelure: Oooh, I like that idea of yours. Rudy gets his own group and becomes like this reocurring character rather than a main character, but still very prominent, and it's like there's side stories going on. Perhaps whenever the series goes on hiatus, Jocelynn could do this whole "The Misadventures with Rudy/Ruby!" thing where it's like... 1 page a week or 1 page every 2 weeks that there hasn't been an upload.

You, my friend, are genius.

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June 24th, 2017, 1:38 am

Chandelure (Guest)

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@TallMist: Well, I think it was planned in the beginning, but then dropped.

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June 23rd, 2017, 3:21 pm

TranshumanAr (Guest)

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League Against Todd, unite! Also, Rudy/Ruby deserves his solo time.

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June 24th, 2017, 3:58 pm

Le Fou (Guest)

Nudge nudge

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@TranshumanAr: Superhero fight scene?nudgenudge. Say no more! Eh?

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June 23rd, 2017, 3:33 pm

Guest

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I definitely don't think any of these four are going to have any sort of outright hostile/violent reaction if/when they see Rudy, but I wouldn't say it's safe, either – I'm not sure I trust Madison and Aidyn to keep their mouths shut at school, even if they intend to.

On another note, though, I'm super excited to see Colette again!!

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June 23rd, 2017, 9:07 pm

(V);,;)V) (Guest)

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So the Ruby/Rudy dynamic is more Superman/Clark Kent than Bruce Wayne/Batman? That is, just as Superman the is the mask and Clark Kent is the real person, Ruby is the mask and Rudy is the real person?

Works for me.

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June 23rd, 2017, 10:39 pm

L.J. Nelson (Guest)

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What i think is funny is that when I started presenting as female I had a similar experience. I ran into a group of my friends in a guitar store and I had to hide from them in order to not get outed. :)

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June 24th, 2017, 1:40 am

Casey (Guest)

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Being a trans girl myself, I've been through similar reactions. However... there is the tines when I know what I am talking about and people like the store clerk or repairman look at me and tell me in so many words I don't know what I'm talking about, and if I react to them they tell me not to be so aggressive. But I like how Ruby/Rudy is experimenting with this. They just might find something more about themselves as time goes on ^_^

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June 24th, 2017, 3:53 pm

Le Fou (Guest)

In my experience

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@LittleLynn84: In my experience (however small it is) When I started coming out to people, I felt happier to be me, and I guess it just rubs off on people.
When I'm happier, other people are. When I'm not, I know that as soon as I meet my friends, I will be. Rain is one of my friends. Thank you.

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June 25th, 2017, 12:18 am

WoO Rhythm (Guest)

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@LittleLynn84
Every time I read this page I slowly feel like you are trying to imply something about Rudy/Ruby. With Ruby's "Solo Debut" and everything it feels as though Rudy may be Transgender. It has been very suspicious that "Ruby" has been in the comic a lot more lately. Very very sneaky of you.

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June 25th, 2017, 7:15 pm

Haldo (Guest)

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Given Ana's last conversation with Rain she's not exactly an ideal person for Ruby to run into

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